Pre-Med Chat —
August 17, 1999
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Secondary Essay
Chat Transcript
This chat focused on secondary application essays for medical
school. Linda Abraham, Accepted.com’s president, was the
moderator. Cindy Tokumitsu, an Accepted.com editor, assisted.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:55:28 PM)
Is everyone ready to start?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 8:55:32 PM)
yes
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 8:55:32 PM)
yup
gltrilik (17-Aug-99 8:55:35 PM)
yeah
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:55:47 PM)
OK. Welcome to Accepted.com’s third online chat. We will focus on
secondary essays this evening.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:55:57 PM)
I encourage dialogue and discussion, but I would like to suggest a
structure to make it easier to follow the threads of conversation.
So here is the protocol:
Varsha (17-Aug-99 8:55:57 PM)
oh my god we just had an earthquake in Berkeley, no lie.
Varsha (17-Aug-99 8:56:04 PM)
ok, it' s ok
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 8:56:05 PM)
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Varsha (17-Aug-99 8:56:08 PM)
it was small but scary
rajeev (17-Aug-99 8:56:23 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:56:25 PM)
Nothing in the southern California.
Katie (17-Aug-99 8:56:27 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:56:40 PM)
I will post material to the chat. If you have a question on that
material, please type a "?" and then your question. I and/or other
participants will reply. If one of you want to comment on the
current topic, please jump right in. If you want to start a
different topic, please type "?".
Varsha (17-Aug-99 8:56:47 PM)
OK. I apologize for the intrusion, but those things are weird. I'm
quiet now.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:57:12 PM)
In response to your requests I have prepared a few questions to
discuss. Before I begin, however, I am wondering how many of you
have specific secondary essay questions that you would like me to
discuss tonight and that you did not send in ahead of time?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 8:57:25 PM)
i do
Nikki (17-Aug-99 8:57:29 PM)
I do, too
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:57:33 PM)
Who else?
Varsha (17-Aug-99 8:57:35 PM)
Yes
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 8:57:41 PM)
I might
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 8:57:49 PM)
let me check
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:57:56 PM)
OK. We'll deal with your questions later. Let's proceed with the
ones sent in ahead of time for now.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:58:12 PM)
While most of the chat tonight will be devoted to questions and
answers, I do have a couple of points I want to make. These points
may be review for those who attended the earlier secondary essay
chat, but there will be lots of new material too.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:58:22 PM)
First let’s review, how do secondary essays differ from the AMCAS?
bsf (17-Aug-99 8:58:25 PM)
(This user has entered Writing Secondary Essays)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:58:42 PM)
Any ideas?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 8:58:44 PM)
more personal
bsf (17-Aug-99 8:58:44 PM)
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Bonnie (17-Aug-99 8:58:47 PM)
They want something that was not presented in the AMCAS essay
Varsha (17-Aug-99 8:58:51 PM)
More focused
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:58:59 PM)
Good. You're both right.
bsf (17-Aug-99 8:59:08 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:59:19 PM)
1. Frequently more focused and directed. 2. Often writing more than
one essay for the application 3. Length varies enormously from
school to school.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:59:29 PM)
Points 1 & 2 have specific implications for secondary essay
writers trying to determine how to answer the questions.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:59:40 PM)
#1 implies that you have to ANSWER THE QUESTION. If someone asks
about the your clinical experience, don’t discuss your business
experience.
rajeevp (17-Aug-99 8:59:41 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 8:59:48 PM)
#2 is an opportunity and a restriction. Since the schools already
know something about you, you shouldn’t use the same material over
and over. In that sense you are restricted.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:00:03 PM)
Therein also lies the opportunity. View the different questions as
opportunities to provide the schools with different reasons for
accepting you: You have a wealth of diverse clinical or research
experience; you are a person with an incredible background in the
humanities; or you are a diminutive female body-builder, which
implies self-discipline and a certain independence of mind and
spirit.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:00:12 PM)
In any case, when approaching a secondary essay question you should
be seeking to answer the question in a distinctive, but
straightforward way.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:00:20 PM)
Now for the questions that I received before the chat:
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:00:41 PM)
1) (Stanford) The committee on Admissions regards the diversity of
an entering class as an important factor in serving the educational
mission of the school. The Committee on Admissions encourages you to
share unique and/or challenging factors in your background, such as
the quality of your early educational environment, socioeconomic
status, culture, race, ethnicity, or life or work experience.
Please: a) discuss how such factors have influenced your goals and
preparation for a career in medicine; and b) describe in detail (to
the extent not included in previous answers) your involvement in
campus or off-campus activities, paid or unpaid, in terms of
community service, assumption of leadership roles, activities
related to the care of others, etc. Use an additional sheet if
necessary.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:01:03 PM)
thats the question i had!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:01:09 PM)
How does a white male who’s attended Catholic or private school
all his life answer this question? Also, how should I relate the
second part of the question (parts a and b) to the first part? Any
help here would be wonderful.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:01:18 PM)
Raakstar, you must be applying to Stanford.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:01:26 PM)
yes
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:01:28 PM)
Any ideas from you?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:01:52 PM)
I have some advice concerning the Stanford app as a whole...
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:02:02 PM)
OK. Please go ahead.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:02:03 PM)
well, part a i can tie in.....with some effort....bart b seems
disconnnected
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:02:27 PM)
go ahead, amsa
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:02:35 PM)
When I first got this one, I REALLY wanted to save it for last
because it was so long. However, having done about 5 or 6 since I
completed the Stanford app, I am SO happy that I got it out of the
way (more to come)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:02:53 PM)
Do you have any advice on approaching this questions?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:03:10 PM)
they really ask about EVERYTHING, so you pretty much set yourself up
for other applications by doing this one first
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:03:45 PM)
(let me take a quick look at what I wrote...I've already forgotten)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:04:00 PM)
OK. That's OK. Here are my ideas.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:04:03 PM)
You will have to focus on the "unique or challenging
factors" in you life or work experience, as opposed to a
disadvantaged or ethnic background. If your clinical or
extra-curricular activities took you off the beaten path or required
you to work with people of different and diverse backgrounds, you
will focus on that. Have you volunteered in a free clinic, an AIDS
clinic? Have you traveled or volunteered abroad? You can contrast
that population with the one in which you grew up or in which you
performed other volunteer experiences.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:04:33 PM)
Then relate these activities to lessons you can apply to patient
care or perhaps working in teams with peers who will inevitably have
different perspectives.
ann (17-Aug-99 9:04:37 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:04:53 PM)
If you have multiple examples and experiences that you can use to
answer this question, then ask yourself what does this school know
about you already. If discussing certain experiences will allow you
to answer the question and bring out another dimension of your life
or go into greater depth about something really important to you,
then those are the experiences you should use.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:05:02 PM)
ready to share my 2 cents when you want
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:05:10 PM)
As always if you allow the reader to use his senses to see, hear,
feel, etc. the differences and contrast with which you were dealing,
the essay will be that much better. And remember the more specific
you are, the more distinctive and interesting your essay will be.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:05:25 PM)
Go ahead AMSA Trustee.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:05:50 PM)
For me, I didn't really have a lot of diverse background experiences
to work on, so I focused on my encounters with different cultures
and beliefs when I entered college
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:05:50 PM)
Anyone else have thoughts on this question?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:06:04 PM)
Yes, I am the white male who attended Catholic school for 12 years
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:06:07 PM)
That is a good approach for someone with your background.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:06:20 PM)
I thought so :-;
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:06:39 PM)
well, i am asian, have studied abroad.....but what about part b.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:06:42 PM)
Then, I was able to take my reactions and show how I took the chance
to become a leader in tying together people with diverse beliefs
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:07:12 PM)
and what if I wasn’t exposed to health care situations in my
travels
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:07:25 PM)
Part B is simply description of those experiences that would
contribute to the diversity of the class.
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:07:27 PM)
? A general question about responses to secondaries. I have
completed about 5 or 6 and I'm really starting to feel like my
answers are contrived and something that they must have heard a
million times before. Any suggestions on changing the tone?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:07:48 PM)
If you traveled, then you had to deal with diverse cultures and you
must have had cross-cultural experiences.
DT (17-Aug-99 9:08:02 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:08:03 PM)
Nikki, could you hold that to the end and ask it later.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:08:36 PM)
yes, they just don’t seem related to medicine
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:08:39 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:08:48 PM)
The question is somewhat confusing in that b asks you describe the
experiences and a asks for the significance of those experiences.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:09:14 PM)
I'd like to take a minute to welcome cindyt (AKA Cindy Tokumitsu,
one of Accepted.com's editors)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:09:22 PM)
Should we go on to a different question?
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:09:30 PM)
Yes
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:09:31 PM)
yes
Varsha (17-Aug-99 9:09:36 PM)
yes
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:09:37 PM)
sure
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:09:42 PM)
yes
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:09:49 PM)
Question 2 (Duke and some others) "Describe a moral or ethical
dilemma that you have faced and the coping skills or people you
talked to to resolve it."
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:10:10 PM)
Sound familiar? This one drives people crazy.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:10:11 PM)
First let’s look at the nature of a dilemma: "A situation in
which one must choose between unpleasant alternatives."
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:10:14 PM)
U. of Chicago has pretty much that same question
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:10:26 PM)
That means they are looking for a situation with no obvious right
answer. There is ambiguity and difficulty. Usually each side has
some pluses. And each side always has negatives.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:10:35 PM)
The first part of this question asks you to "describe."
Again, use specifics and vivid language to place the reader in your
shoes, to let them understand your predicament. But don’t spend an
inordinate amount of time on this part of the question.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:10:47 PM)
Once you have set the scene, then go into the aspects that made it a
dilemma. What were the pros and cons? What was at risk? What was the
unpleasant aspect of each alternative?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:10:58 PM)
Finally conclude by discussing how you resolved the situation. What
skills did you rely on or whose advice did you seek? What tipped the
scales in one direction or the other? Briefly, what was the outcome?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:11:25 PM)
Any questions?
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:11:34 PM)
Linda, what is the adcom looking for w/ this question?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:11:58 PM)
I think they are looking to see how you handle ambiguity and a
little bit about your values and thought processes.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:12:11 PM)
Remember, most of these essays are attempts to get to know you.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:12:17 PM)
I believe they are seeking to learn that the applicant can be frank,
reflective, and analytical.
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:12:22 PM)
?do you think there really is a right answer?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:12:23 PM)
That too.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:12:27 PM)
And concise in the process!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:12:35 PM)
No.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:12:57 PM)
I think the right answer has to be authentic and sincere along with
well written, logical, and thoughtful.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:13:07 PM)
This is not a creative writing exercise.
rajeev (17-Aug-99 9:13:12 PM)
does the nature of the dilemma matter?
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:13:16 PM)
What if your politics/values don't square w/ theirs? What can you do
to cover yourself?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:13:20 PM)
What do you mean?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:13:26 PM)
how long would you think is acceptable
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:13:40 PM)
essay length i mean
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:13:41 PM)
Most of the time, schools give guidelines. I would stick with them.
rajeev (17-Aug-99 9:13:42 PM)
can it be controversial?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:13:51 PM)
When they don't, I would go with 1 - 2 pages.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:13:56 PM)
Raakstar, Duke and Chicago give you about 14 lines for that question
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:14:08 PM)
I would think twice about picking a subject too controversial like
abortion, religion, etc.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:14:09 PM)
wow, that’s short
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:14:10 PM)
If you have 14 lines, then you need to be very concise.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:14:10 PM)
Subject matter may be open, but there are some obvious no-nos.
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:14:15 PM)
That's what i mean by right vs. wrong. What if they wouldn't act as
we did in the dilemma..
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:14:42 PM)
wait, sorry, Duke gives you tons of room, Chicago gives you I
believe about 30 lines or so
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:14:43 PM)
The point is how you be thought and acted. Did you stick to your
values?
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:14:54 PM)
I see
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:15:05 PM)
what if you haven’t had such a situation
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:15:07 PM)
You also must demonstrate that your analysis is sound. They are not
expecting to agree with everyone about everything.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:15:07 PM)
Actually, I was just working on Duke with a client today. I think he
had up to 1000 words.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:15:22 PM)
You HAVE had such a situation...you just have to be creative
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:15:36 PM)
Raakstar, I agree with amsa. You had to have had such a situation.
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:15:39 PM)
Raak... U of Pittsburgh says they doubt someone would never
encounter that situation
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:15:51 PM)
(Please, call me Matt)
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:15:56 PM)
ok!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:16:16 PM)
Remember you can look in many different areas of your life.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:16:34 PM)
sports, extra-curricular activities, family life, friends, dorm
life.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:16:39 PM)
the list is endless.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:17:01 PM)
Should we move one?
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:17:01 PM)
That is important, Linda -- keep in mind the overall application
package; always try to provide a complete picture. This can be part
of rounding it out.
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:17:07 PM)
wait..
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:17:08 PM)
Have you ever had the opportunity to cheat in a class when you knew
others were doing so but decided not to?
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:17:08 PM)
Yes
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:17:10 PM)
yes
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:17:13 PM)
Excellent point Cindy. Matt, that’s a good example.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:17:22 PM)
OK Bonnie, go ahead.
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:17:23 PM)
isn't a dilemma about dorm life trivial?
Varsha (17-Aug-99 9:17:24 PM)
but some schools say please don't talk about academic fraud
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:17:30 PM)
Not at all, Bonnie
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:17:47 PM)
It could involve drugs and alcohol. Getting along with your
roommate. A request to cheat.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:17:56 PM)
Friends vs some value.
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:18:00 PM)
oh, i see...
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:18:13 PM)
you are right, there are tons of things
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:18:23 PM)
If they say not to talk about academic fraud, then don't, but if it
is not frowned upon, it is fair game.
rajeev (17-Aug-99 9:18:29 PM)
is it bad to use a situation that might seem ordinary, like alcohol?
farhan (17-Aug-99 9:18:30 PM)
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gltrilik (17-Aug-99 9:18:37 PM)
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Bill (17-Aug-99 9:18:45 PM)
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amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:18:47 PM)
helping you peers in a class vs. getting a better spot on the curve
(sorry, typical premed came out there)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:18:52 PM)
Alcohol can be a horrible curse, not just a dilemma.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:18:53 PM)
Often they don't want discussion of academic failure, e.g., bad
grade, etc.
gltrilik (17-Aug-99 9:18:54 PM)
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Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:19:05 PM)
Good one, Matt
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:19:17 PM)
The list really is endless. If you all have a better idea, let's
move on OK?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:19:23 PM)
ok
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:19:27 PM)
Sure
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:19:30 PM)
ok
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:19:33 PM)
ok
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:19:38 PM)
The last request sent in isn’t really a secondary essay question,
nor is it something that I have tremendous expertise in, but I am
willing to ask the group and see if together we can answer it.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:19:53 PM)
How do you manage time and stress during this hectic, pressured
period when you have to manage your normal multiple responsibilities
AND applications?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:20:00 PM)
Any tips?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:20:02 PM)
I’m clueless here
DMSO (17-Aug-99 9:20:04 PM)
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RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:20:09 PM)
i take naps
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:20:11 PM)
Set deadlines for yourself
Varsha (17-Aug-99 9:20:15 PM)
Prioritize and stick to it. Also naps.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:20:28 PM)
rewards
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:20:32 PM)
i say prioritize..
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:20:33 PM)
Most schools say "Submit by December", but if you keep
waiting they WILL pile up
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:20:45 PM)
All excellent suggestions.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:20:48 PM)
I have a few suggestions:
Varsha (17-Aug-99 9:20:56 PM)
Hang out with a non premed friend, often.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:21:03 PM)
1. Try to reduce your load to allow for the time that secondaries,
interviews, etc. will require.
edge (17-Aug-99 9:21:08 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:21:19 PM)
2. Keep a perspective on the process. You know that not everyone
gets admitted. Assess you chances and develop alternative plans in
case you are one of the many capable candidates not admitted this
time around. Do your best, but acknowledge that life will continue
and you can happily pursue the alternatives, if necessary.
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:21:29 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:21:49 PM)
3. Schedule time for "sharpening the saw" in the
words of Stephen Covey, author of 7 Habits of Highly Effective
People. Make sure you have at least a little bit of time for
yourself —exercise, music, religion,
family or anything that you will be doing for you.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:21:55 PM)
(This user is now known as toolop)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:22:04 PM)
Any other ideas?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:22:06 PM)
Don't feel that your entire admission depends on a single answer to
one essay question
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:22:26 PM)
(You'll go crazy after 3 or 4 applications)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:22:32 PM)
Good. Or that your entire future happiness depends on getting into
medical school now.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:22:34 PM)
Yes, again, keep the whole package in mind.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:22:49 PM)
Should we return to secondary questions?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:22:53 PM)
yes
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:22:56 PM)
I had the fortune of having someone go through the whole process
with me...that is, we try and push each other to get them back
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:23:09 PM)
Matt, I am sure that is a great help.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:23:23 PM)
Who has a question he or she would like to discuss this evening?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:23:23 PM)
what do you mean, get them back
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:23:30 PM)
get the applications returned
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:23:46 PM)
oh, I have a general question
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:23:56 PM)
Ok. Go ahead.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:24:34 PM)
i feel like i should not be using formal writing style since i am
discussing very personal things.....
rajeev (17-Aug-99 9:24:37 PM)
when we answer questions about a subject that interests us besides
medicine, is it bad to talk about religious activities?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:24:53 PM)
I'll take Raakstar's first and then rajeev.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:25:00 PM)
Raakstar, I suggest a style that is conversational but not casual.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:25:04 PM)
is it ok to use unconventional grammer or punctuation?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:25:23 PM)
where's the line?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:25:30 PM)
You should focus on communicating in a clear, professional style.
Big words don't count; correct grammar and English usage does.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:25:47 PM)
An occasional sentence fragment can add to the effectiveness of an
essay.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:25:48 PM)
Rajeev -- I believe it is OK, but be thoughtful about the context. I
have seen many excellent AMCAS and secondary essays that incorporate
an individual's faith.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:25:56 PM)
so i cant use any dashes, etc.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:26:04 PM)
Rampant misspellings and everything in lowercase doesn't cut it.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:26:09 PM)
It appears immature.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:26:28 PM)
A double-dash can be used and is a part of English punctuation.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:26:32 PM)
Just don't over use it.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:26:42 PM)
I wouldn't call dashes -- when used effectively -- to be
unconventional
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:26:51 PM)
Raakstar did I answer your question?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:27:03 PM)
yes, pretty much
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:27:22 PM)
Rajeev -- how about you? Do you have any further thoughts on that
issue?
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:27:23 PM)
i ahve a question
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:27:36 PM)
Rajeev, as long as you are not preaching, you can talk about
religious activities.
rajeev (17-Aug-99 9:27:38 PM)
no
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:27:56 PM)
It is something important to you, and in the appropriate questions,
it can be the foundation of a good answer.
ann (17-Aug-99 9:27:59 PM)
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bsf (17-Aug-99 9:28:03 PM)
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Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:28:04 PM)
Columbia asks: In what collegiate extra-curricular activities did
you engage?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:28:29 PM)
That's pretty straightforward. Do you have a particular problem with
that?
annie (17-Aug-99 9:28:31 PM)
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Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:28:33 PM)
this is on the amcas. i'm assumiming they want narrative not a list.
yes?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:28:52 PM)
They want a narrative and some indication of the significance.
annie (17-Aug-99 9:29:08 PM)
thanks
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:29:11 PM)
If you discussed your extra curriculars on the AMCAS, then go into
greater depth here.
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:29:20 PM)
ok
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:29:35 PM)
It's a chance to show the quality of your involvement and
commitment.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:29:37 PM)
Alternatively, discuss something you didn't have space for on the
AMCAS essay.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:29:40 PM)
BTW, I have an inside tip on Columbia....If you have ever played
rugby, mention it! I think their dean is a big rugby guy, and they
are very proud of their medical school rugby team. BTW, if you look
in their brochure on their extracurriculars page, they specifically
mention "Have you played rugby" and they even show a
picture of some students playing rugby
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:29:57 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:29:58 PM)
That is an interesting tip, Matt.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:30:07 PM)
Nikki, welcome back. What was your question?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:30:09 PM)
And, yes, I did play rugby my freshman year :-)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:30:16 PM)
Good move.
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:30:22 PM)
Frisbee at Yale :-)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:30:32 PM)
Yale will help you more than the frisbee.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:30:43 PM)
Don't knock frisbee, Linda...I love it!
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:30:45 PM)
how about "what satisfactions do you
expect....something.....something....as a doctor?" I think that
is Columbia too.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:30:45 PM)
Nikki, did you have a question earlier?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:30:58 PM)
Matt, that's why you missed the earlier chat right?
farhan (17-Aug-99 9:31:05 PM)
Hi, Can I ask 2 questions: 1. Why do I need to submit a separate
essay to every med. school I apply to? and 2. Most applications have
spaces where you can fill out any awards you've received, what if
you have nothing to list?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:31:10 PM)
you got me
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:31:19 PM)
Yes -- Columbia's question, what satisfaction do you expect to get
from being a doctor.
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:31:31 PM)
?What's the best way to answer "Why our school...?"
Honestly, for most schools, I reallyd on't have a specific reason.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:31:36 PM)
Only some schools require additional essays. You need to send them
in when required or you will be rejected.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:31:52 PM)
2. If you have nothing to list, then leave it blank.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:32:15 PM)
Nikki, that is a common problem. I suggest you visit the school's
Web site and scour their brochures and literature.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:32:17 PM)
Nikki -- pick a few specifics -- special programs, unique approach,
early patient interaction, specific courses, affiliated hospitals.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:32:19 PM)
Remember...honoraries (honor societies) can count as awards
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:32:35 PM)
Then focus on specific aspects of their program that appeal to you.
farhan (17-Aug-99 9:32:45 PM)
LAbraham: doesn't that look kind of bad?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:32:56 PM)
Do they have early patient contact, a professor that you would like
to do research with, or exchange programs that are particularly
attractive?
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:33:12 PM)
Cindy problem is that most schools have early patient interaction,
special programs like problem-based learning...things that apply to
every school.
DMSO (17-Aug-99 9:33:12 PM)
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RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:33:22 PM)
Cornell asks for one sentence on why you choose Cornell
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:33:24 PM)
farhan...it won't look great, but, then again, it won't break you,
either. It's just one small part
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:33:27 PM)
Farhan, it certainly is better to have honors or awards than not.
But if you don't have them, you can't manufacture them.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:33:59 PM)
Also Nikki, you can talk to current students and ask them what they
particularly like about that school?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:34:17 PM)
Raakstar, then you need to be succinct and specific.
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:34:33 PM)
If you don't know anybody, any suggestions on how you go about
approaching these students?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:34:33 PM)
Whatever you do, don't write something so generic that it applies to
every school.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:34:39 PM)
I mentioned high professor accessibility, wide variety of
extracurrics, and urban setting-- these reasons sound generic, but
they are important to me
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:34:56 PM)
At least look up the school's particular name for early patient
contact or problem-based learning.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:34:57 PM)
In the Cornell one-liner
farhan (17-Aug-99 9:35:01 PM)
Can you list an award that you recieved say 3 years ago, or do they
have to be awards recieved in the previous 2-3 years?
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:35:08 PM)
Those are the very reasons I used...My point exactly.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:35:10 PM)
Yes, per LAbraham's point, it can even be good to mention having
spoken to students about the programs etc.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:35:18 PM)
Raakstar it sounds like you did a good job given one line.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:35:37 PM)
I thought I blew it.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:35:58 PM)
Does AMSA have any abilities to connect medical students with
applicants to particular schools?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:36:09 PM)
working on it :-)
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:36:16 PM)
What is AMSA
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:36:25 PM)
actually, there is a BIG opportunity at the convention...we have a
medical school fair
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:36:35 PM)
Raakstar, you could have been more specific if you mentioned
particular programs, but you only had one line and did list what is
important to you.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:36:44 PM)
ok
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:36:53 PM)
Last year we had students from over 80 medical schools set up tables
to talk to premeds about their schools...it helped me out a lot!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:36:56 PM)
farhan, yes you can list something from 3 years ago.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:36:58 PM)
Could we discuss the Columbia question?
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:37:07 PM)
What convention was this, matt? and where?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:37:11 PM)
Of course, that is in March, and not next week :-(
farhan (17-Aug-99 9:37:14 PM)
ok, thanx.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:37:16 PM)
AMSA is the American Medcial Student Association.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:37:24 PM)
I'll talk about AMSA at the end if it's alright with Linda
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:37:25 PM)
Sure toolop.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:37:28 PM)
Which question?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:37:37 PM)
Matt. That's fine.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:37:39 PM)
The satisfaction one.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:37:43 PM)
What satisfactions do you expect to gain as a physician?
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:37:55 PM)
I believe the Columbia question asks for what satisfaction you
expect -- it's the inverse of what motivates you, so you can look to
see how you addressed that issue in other essays (perhaps AMCAS).
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:38:17 PM)
OK. Here I would describe a clinical experience that was rewarding.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:38:33 PM)
Discuss what you liked about it and how you intend to experience
similar satisfactions as a physician.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:39:03 PM)
Raakstar, does that help?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:39:03 PM)
I like that response...it shows that you really KNOW what you want
out of being a physician
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:39:06 PM)
What if you addressed this issue in your AMCAS statement? Can I just
delineate on it further and refer to my AMCAS statement?
DT (17-Aug-99 9:39:19 PM)
I thought Columbia was non-AMCAS.
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:39:23 PM)
You can also bring in other experiences, say, of helping people, of
research, etc. -- just be sure to articulate the satisfaction
derived. Do not just "hint" at it. Make it clear.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:39:27 PM)
You can refer to your AMCAS essay, but it would be better if you
could add something else.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:39:33 PM)
Yes, Columbia is non-AMCAS
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:39:40 PM)
Oh, good
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:39:45 PM)
It is -- this question is in place of the AMCAS. But most people who
apply to Columbia also have had to do the AMCAS for other
applications.
gltrilik (17-Aug-99 9:39:46 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:39:47 PM)
One problem eliminated.
gltrilik (17-Aug-99 9:39:58 PM)
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Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:39:59 PM)
That's the problem that I encountered, too. A lot of these secondary
questions ask things that were already answered in your AMCAS essay.
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:40:15 PM)
Are adcoms jaded when it comes to the "I want to help
people" phrase?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:40:19 PM)
Nikki, on the secondaries you need to go into greater depth or refer
to other experiences.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:40:30 PM)
Suzanne, yes, particularly if there is nothing to support it.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:40:43 PM)
?How about the questioni re: what specialty you're interested in?
What's the point?
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:40:48 PM)
Suzanne, I can't imagine that they aren't. They probably have read
the same phrases a gazillion times.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:40:51 PM)
You also have to remember that "helping people" applies to
a lot of professions from plumber to lawyer.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:41:08 PM)
I'd say Yes, on the "I want to help people" phrase, but No
on the "Here's an example of how I helped people and enjoyed
it, and thus I want to do it some more"
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:41:11 PM)
The question really is why do you want to help people through
medicine.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:41:21 PM)
How have you helped people in the past?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:41:28 PM)
And what did you learn from those experiences?
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:41:43 PM)
Thanks
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:41:56 PM)
Toolop, simply answer what is most attractive to you now.
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:42:14 PM)
?How long does this chat run?
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:42:15 PM)
Would it be selfish if we focused on the personal satisfaction,
versus the patient's improved condition?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:42:17 PM)
along with why. Those two points will demonstrate some familiarity
with medicine.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:42:24 PM)
How long do you want it to run?
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:42:25 PM)
OK - I thought what if my interest, primary care, doesn't jibe with
the school's strengths?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:42:54 PM)
Raakstar, focusing on personal satisfaction would better answer the
question in this context.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:43:29 PM)
Most schools, even heavily research oriented institutions, are
dealing with a primary care world.
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:43:42 PM)
Raakstar, I don't think it would be too selfish. I don't think
schools expect that you already know the satisfaction of a patient's
improved condition. We're not MDs, yet. Your personal reasons might
ring more true.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:43:50 PM)
I assume you also have research and are interested in research along
with primary care if you are applying to research-oriented schools.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:44:24 PM)
yes - should that be integrated into that question's answer?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:44:29 PM)
Remember the application is a whole, not just one sentence or
answer.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:44:31 PM)
I don't feel I have the room to just apply to schools I am really
interested in....I feel I have to go wherever I get in.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:44:31 PM)
YES!
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:44:38 PM)
right on bro.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:44:47 PM)
Yes Toolop.
Nikki (17-Aug-99 9:44:56 PM)
I totally agree! That's why I feel like some of my answers are BS.
annie (17-Aug-99 9:45:22 PM)
For research oriented schools how do you best demonstrate your
commitment to research?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:45:30 PM)
Raakstar, you should apply to schools at which you have a chance and
in which you are interested.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:45:49 PM)
Don't worry if your answers appear to be BS...if the committee
questions whether an answer is BS or not, then it will come up in
the interview, and then you can show them that you are authentic
(well, unless your answer really was BS)
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:45:53 PM)
Re Nikki's point -- that's why it's helpful to do an earnest, fresh
job on the early essays and then try to work with that material as
much as possible.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:46:06 PM)
If you have been involved in research, you have already demonstrated
it, Annie. If you haven't done any research, it is kind of hard to
demonstrate commitment to it.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:46:51 PM)
Any other questions?
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:46:54 PM)
I have a question...
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:47:10 PM)
OK Bonnie
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:47:36 PM)
I have some across the question "decsribe yourself" and
"...supply any othe information you would like to bring up to
the adcom"...
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:47:43 PM)
Yes?
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:47:46 PM)
they are asking for general...
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:48:04 PM)
Take activities that are distinctive and important to you and write
about them.
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:48:23 PM)
would a specific experience be categorized as not answering the
question?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:48:27 PM)
Allow the reader to use their senses to visualize the scene and then
write about their importance to you.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:48:50 PM)
Try to use material not discussed in the AMCAS essay, or again, go
into greater depth.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:49:00 PM)
I have one more question, also.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:49:08 PM)
? UCSD wants an autobiography! How do I limit the information I put
in here?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:49:22 PM)
Not if that specific experience exemplifies qualities that describe
you or provides the other information.
Katie (17-Aug-99 9:49:22 PM)
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RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:49:27 PM)
I suppose the answer to that is what you just told Bonnie
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:49:43 PM)
With Tulane: 3 major reasons you want to go into medicine.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:49:43 PM)
Toolop first your question and then Raakstar.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:49:55 PM)
You're right Raakstar.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:49:58 PM)
Hhow can one be so concise but not trite?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:50:17 PM)
Focus on what is most important to you and be anecdotal.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:50:19 PM)
the answes are supposed to be one line each!
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:50:22 PM)
Raakstar -- I have been working on such an essay with a client. It's
tricky. You can go into your background, what was important to you
-- not just things directly related to medicine. You can elaborate
on formative influences.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:50:27 PM)
Forget the anecdotes.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:50:34 PM)
Just list the three reasons.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:50:42 PM)
be witty, if possible...
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:50:43 PM)
They obviously don't want depth there.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:50:47 PM)
then they'll remember you
cindyt (17-Aug-99 9:50:54 PM)
Raakstar -- try to bring out a theme that is consistent with the
AMCAS too.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:51:03 PM)
But not duplicative of it.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:51:09 PM)
It should complement the AMCAS.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:51:12 PM)
isnt that a big risk? being witty?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:51:13 PM)
e.g. have all 3 start with the same letter or something catchy like
that...just be sure to be sincere
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:51:32 PM)
They really aren't opposed to wit and intelligence.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:51:37 PM)
It can even help to demonstrate some.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:52:16 PM)
Any other questions or should we let Matt tell us about AMSA?
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:52:38 PM)
Go ahead, Matt
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:52:44 PM)
Well, how does this whole editing/client thing work? How do I sign
up?
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:52:45 PM)
no more questions
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:52:50 PM)
AMSA: American Medial Student Association...
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:52:51 PM)
What does it cost?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:53:05 PM)
but it is dedicated to ALL physicians-in-training...even premeds!!!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:53:10 PM)
You can go to Accepted.com Registration to sign up
or e-mail info@accepted.com
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:53:19 PM)
Cost: $20/year or $65 for 4 years
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:53:26 PM)
I'll discuss prices when Matt finishes.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:53:26 PM)
website: http://www.amsa.org/premed
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:53:41 PM)
(go there for the full scoop)
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:53:44 PM)
national convention:
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:53:55 PM)
March 15-19, 2000 in Washington, DC
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:54:14 PM)
with TONS of stuff for premeds (maybe even Linda Abraham :-) )
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:54:25 PM)
I hope so!
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:54:29 PM)
oh, and I"ll let y'all in on a little secret
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:54:30 PM)
Perfect! I live there, and it will be in time for applications!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:54:34 PM)
Matt do you want to give an e-mail address too?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:54:47 PM)
This isn't supposed to be announced until Thursday, but...
edge (17-Aug-99 9:54:58 PM)
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LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:54:59 PM)
This transcript will -- with a little luck -- be posted.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:55:22 PM)
Go ahead we're hanging on every word Matt.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:55:23 PM)
All NEW AMSA members (retroactive to Aug. 1, I believe) will receive
either a FREE copy of the AAMC's Medical School Admission
Requirements...
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:55:32 PM)
Great deal!
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:55:38 PM)
or $35 towards a purchase of $100 at medbookstore.com
annie (17-Aug-99 9:55:53 PM)
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amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:56:02 PM)
Yep, the MSAR is $25, but you can it for FREE by simply joining AMSA,
with free shipping too
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:56:11 PM)
oh, and one more thing that I'll plug :-)
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:56:17 PM)
Go ahead.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:56:18 PM)
Linda can vouch for this one..
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:56:20 PM)
the convention seems late in the application game. what does it
offer in march?
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:56:44 PM)
AMSA has a great listserv where premeds talk about a WIDE variety of
topics
Bonnie (17-Aug-99 9:56:49 PM)
or maybe i'm a year late..
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:56:59 PM)
interviews, secondaries, general advice, etc.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:57:04 PM)
Matt is right on that. The listserv is excellent. Very supportive
and helpful.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:57:13 PM)
Well, AMSA members do get discounts on some airlines for interviews
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:57:18 PM)
I strongly recommend the AMSA mailing list.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:57:38 PM)
details for the AMSA listserv are on the AMSA premed webpage:
http://www.amsa.org/premed
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 9:57:42 PM)
Matt, I'll join after this chat.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:57:56 PM)
Good going Matt.
amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 9:57:58 PM)
Thanks, Linda!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:58:01 PM)
Now to plug Accepted.com
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:58:17 PM)
Information on our services is available at
Accepted.com Services
and Critique & Polish.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:58:45 PM)
If you can't cut and paste that fast enough, then go to
Accepted.com Help and simply go down the menu on the left.
DT (17-Aug-99 9:59:20 PM)
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RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 9:59:34 PM)
ok, thank you.... how soon will the transcript be posted?
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 9:59:54 PM)
I would like to thank all of you for coming and sharing your
questions and answers. I want to thank particularly CindyT for her
input. I can't type fast enough.
toolop (17-Aug-99 9:59:58 PM)
Thanks to Linda and Cindy!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 10:00:06 PM)
The transcript should be posted in approximately 1 week.
RAAKSTAR (17-Aug-99 10:00:10 PM)
thanks!
cindyt (17-Aug-99 10:00:11 PM)
Best of luck to you all!
Suzanne (17-Aug-99 10:00:14 PM)
Thanks for inviting me, Linda!
toolop (17-Aug-99 10:00:18 PM)
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amsa premed trustee (17-Aug-99 10:00:19 PM)
Great job, Linda and Cindy!
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 10:00:19 PM)
I am very interested in your reaction to the chat. If you could
e-mail your comments to chatfeedback@accepted.com, I would greatly
appreciate it.
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 10:00:34 PM)
Thank you again. Good night.
Tina (17-Aug-99 10:00:37 PM)
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Tina (17-Aug-99 10:00:46 PM)
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Bonnie (17-Aug-99 10:01:08 PM)
Thank you Linda, Matt and Cindy..
LAbraham (17-Aug-99 10:01:18 PM)
You're very welcome. Let us know how you do.
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