Law School Admissions 2003 with Catherine Cook

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Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:05:23 PM)
OK. Let's start.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:05:34 PM)
First I want to welcome you all to Accepted.com's law school admissions online chat!

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:05:44 PM)
I also want to welcome Catherine Cook, currently an editor at Accepted.com and formerly a member of the Duke Law Admissions Committee. She will be answering your questions this evening.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:05:54 PM)
Thanks to everyone for joining.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:05:58 PM)
Hi everyone

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:06:07 PM)
We encourage dialogue and discussion, but we would like to suggest a structure to make it easier to follow the threads of conversation. So here is the protocol:

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:06:17 PM)
If you would like to ask a question, please type a '?' and then your question. One of us, or another guest, will reply. If one of you wants to comment on the current topic, please jump right in. If you want to start a different topic, please type '?'.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:06:26 PM)
Catherine and I also have a request: We would like to avoid the brief summary of qualifications (or even the long laundry list) followed by the question, "Can I qualify for a particular school." All we will be able to say is "You seem to have a competitive profile" or "Your chances are slim."

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:06:43 PM)
Other than that limitation, this is your chance to ask questions of knowledgeable admissions people. Please fire away!

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:07:11 PM)
?

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:07:19 PM)
Go ahead, Kamyar.

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:07:48 PM)
I can hear about 50% of all sounds and I'd like to incorporate that into my addendum, what's the best way?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:08:56 PM)
Hi Kamyar. Are you planning on writing the addendum solely about your disability? Or do you plan on addressing other things in the addendum as well?

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:09:17 PM)
disability and having to finance my own education.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:10:17 PM)
Is financing your education a factor in a GPA problem?

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:10:25 PM)
yes, they both are.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:11:17 PM)
The best way to address it is to be honest about the effect that your disability has had on your academic performance. You want to be matter of fact about your disability and the obstacles that it has presented. Explain without blame.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:12:01 PM)
Catherine, shouldn't he also give some indication that these problems are now under control and won't affect his performance in law school?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:12:43 PM)
Absolutely. State the previous circumstances and how the situation has changed since then.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:13:06 PM)
Can you give some advice on how to approach the law school application process? Focusing on the process after the LSAT, can you suggest strategies for success?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:14:11 PM)
Once the LSAT is taken, it is really important to focus on your personal statement, and addendum, academic, or diversity statement, and letters of recommendation. Setting up a schedule and manageable deadlines is very helpful as well.

sara (Oct 16, 2002 9:14:48 PM)
?

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:14:59 PM)
Go ahead Sara.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:15:32 PM)
What should the personal statement and diversity statement bring out?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:16:17 PM)
The personal statement is the single most important part of the application that will make you stand out from the crowd and become memorable to the adcom.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:16:55 PM)
Do you believe it should focus on Why law? or should students feel free to discuss other interests?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:17:04 PM)
You want it to make a vivid impression and to highlight why you would be a wonderful addition to the law school. It does not need to be about why law? In fact, the most interesting and compelling essays are usually not about why law at all.

sara (Oct 16, 2002 9:17:29 PM)
can you please let me know how I can use my diversity factors to explain a low GPA in the first few years of college: I grew up on welfare and changed schools every year of my childhood. I am the first woman to graduate college in my family and I am from Afghanistan. Also, I grew up with a manic depressive mother which caused much conflict, and worked all through school.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:18:36 PM)
wow - that's a big story to tell.

sara (Oct 16, 2002 9:19:06 PM)
there's more but I'll spare you :)

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:19:29 PM)
Your diversity factors are significant, and are factors that the adcom definitely wants to know about. I would frame it around a theme of overcoming significant obstacles, and outlining them for the adcom.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:21:18 PM)
You should also want to use an addendum or your diversity statement. Don't rely solely on the personal statement.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:21:34 PM)
Diversity and "overcoming obstacles" kind of statements can be a bit tricky though. You want to be honest about the obstacles - again, in a matter of fact way.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:22:13 PM)
Extra-curricular activities have been important for a long time. In the last few years, full-time work experience has become more important at the top schools. What is the role of non-academic activities in the admission process to law school?

sara (Oct 16, 2002 9:22:22 PM)
do you think that it would make up for a low community college GPA (3.0) in order to get into one of the top 15 schools? I subsequently graduated from UCLA with a 3.65.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:22:26 PM)
I agree with Linda. Use the addendum to explain the low GPA in light of the obstacles. It really depends on your complete application package - LSATs, letters of recommendation, the quality of your personal statement and additional written material.

gertie (Oct 16, 2002 9:23:48 PM)
?

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:23:58 PM)
Yes Gertie.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:24:28 PM)
We are a small enough group here this evening that you can just post your question. You don't need to wait for my prompt.

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:24:40 PM)
LOR question: I have been out of school for four years & when I was at school I did not develop a meaningful relationship with any professors. Could I just use LORs from other sources and exclude an LOR from a professor?

sara (Oct 16, 2002 9:25:07 PM)
thanks Catherine and Linda

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:25:18 PM)
you're welcome.

gertie (Oct 16, 2002 9:25:55 PM)
if you are using an addendum to explain circumstances relating to GPA, does this reflect at all in the index # that is calculated along with LSAT score? or do adcoms just keep it in mind when judging your file as a whole? I guess, how effective is an addendum relating to GPA?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:26:20 PM)
If you are right out of school, an academic reference is very important. However, if you have been working for several years and have developed strong ties with employers/colleagues/volunteer mentors, these recommendations are readily accepted. The most important thing is the relationship and the depth of knowledge that your recommender has about you.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:27:51 PM)
It is not factored into your index number. It is additional information that the adcom takes into consideration when reviewing your file.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:28:43 PM)
Extra-curricular activities have been important for a long time. Recently, work experience has become more important. What is the role of non-academic activities in the admission process to law school?

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:29:09 PM)
Diversity ?: I can understand a school trying to build a "diverse" group of students. I am a white female and I feel I am struggling to create myself in a diverse light. Besides URM status, can you provide insight on what Adcoms might consider diverse or different for admission purposes?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:29:12 PM)
Non-academic activities have become more and more important

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:29:49 PM)
Diversity can also relate to experiences. Do you have unusual organizational skills or an unusual hobby or musical or athletic talents?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:30:41 PM)
Community service, in particular, is something that adcoms look for.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:31:12 PM)
Why?

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:31:29 PM)
Yes, I do. I have been using tunnel-vision while self-searching. Thanks for pointing out the little things, I feel like the admissions process is overwhelming and somewhat intimidating. This really should be a self-searching endeavor.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:32:19 PM)
Diversity can mean significant international experiences, unusual work experiences, things that are out of the normal realm of pre-law applicants. It is a very self searching process, you are correct.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:33:47 PM)
Yes, and don't think narrowly about diversity or about community service.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:34:24 PM)
diversity isn't just URM status and community service isn't just volunteering in a soup kitchen.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:34:47 PM)
I agree. Think carefully about how you spend your free time and what that says about you as an individual.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:35:17 PM)
Frequently the most distinctive essays reflect what you do with your time off the job and outside the classroom.

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:35:41 PM)
I would like to find out more about what lawyers in various practices actually do. On many of the schools' websites there is nothing that is even remote to what the practice is actually about. Do you know of any books or periodicals that really explains what a Corporate Lawyer would do (what it is *really* like)? I have a book authored by Susan Bell, but it is not explicit enough.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:35:42 PM)
The best personal statement I ever read when I was at Duke was about cooking.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:36:22 PM)
Cooking?

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:36:26 PM)
cooking?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:36:28 PM)
I recommend Richard Montauk's book - How to Get into the Top Law Schools

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:36:36 PM)
Cooking.

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:37:19 PM)
?can u talk a little bit about personal statement structure?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:37:28 PM)
Montauk strongly recommends addressing your question - what kind of law, why law - as the first step in the application process. He also gives references for how to begin exploring the options available once you graduate

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:38:57 PM)
You can find the book at http://www.accepted.com/bookstore/lawbooks.aspx . It is excellent and he also discusses the decision to become a lawyer and go to law school.

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:39:10 PM)
Is it better to tailor in reasons for choosing a specific school in the personal statement?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:39:11 PM)
Personal statements are very individual, there is no one formula for structure. But I can tell you what seems to be working very nicely!

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:39:22 PM)
k

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:40:07 PM)
UMND - absolutely. You need to show that you are choosing XYZ law school because it is the right place for you - not because it is one of the ten on your list.

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:40:34 PM)
Thanks!

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:40:40 PM)
Kamyar, there are suggestions on the Web site for structuring your law school personal statement. But in general we recommend that you open with an anecdote or lead.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:41:06 PM)
Structure: I love essays that begin with a story or anecdote that introduces the theme of you personal statement

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:41:16 PM)
Great minds think alike!

gertie (Oct 16, 2002 9:41:18 PM)
umnd - I'm browsing a book by Kimm Alayne Walton - America's Greatest Places to Work with a Law Degree. It' s very interesting because it talks about non-traditional paths in the field.

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:41:46 PM)
Thx Gertie

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:41:52 PM)
But Linda clearly types better than I do!

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:42:17 PM)
Is it true that humor seldom works well in personal statements?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:42:52 PM)
It is important to weave your theme throughout the essay, making sure the intro and conclusion are in sync. A little self deprecating humor, or any kind of humor, often works well. But you do have to be careful. You don't want to come off as a sarcastic or not taking the task at hand seriously enough.

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:44:27 PM)
As far as law firm job placement goes, is it better to graduate, let's say top 3 at Loyola or middle of your class at USC?

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:45:06 PM)
LSAT numbers: with the increase of applicants for year 2003, do you think the LSAT medians will rise? Or someone who would have been accepted for 2002 would have a slimmer chance in 2003?

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:46:07 PM)
is this thing on?

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:46:12 PM)
umnd. Increased apps have certainly meant decreased chances and higher average LSATs.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:46:21 PM)
Well, it somewhat depends on whether you want to practice in the same area where your school is located. It also depends on the kind of law you want to practice

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:46:41 PM)
GMATs I mean for b-school. I expect you'll see the same for law schools.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:46:55 PM)
Montauk does imply that the higher the ranking of the school, the larger the paycheck.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:47:59 PM)
I think the US News also shows the same correlation.

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:48:07 PM)
Even though the top 25th percentile at Loyola makes the same as top 25th percentile at USC?...according to US News.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:49:09 PM)
Again, there are many factors - location, kind of legal practice, prior experience.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:49:21 PM)
25th percentile in terms of LSAT scores? GPA? what?

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:49:44 PM)
salaries.

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:50:12 PM)
Is there an average or acceptable length for an LOR? I am assuming it should touch on issues not covered in the personal statement, is this correct?

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:50:12 PM)
I don't know the answer to your question, but I would also look at the % employed at graduation. How many firms and which firms recruit at the two schools?

Kamyar (Oct 16, 2002 9:50:46 PM)
k

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:50:50 PM)
Those factors would also play into the relative worth of the two degrees.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:51:16 PM)
Umnd - The LOR should be at least one page, preferably longer. It should dovetail with the personal statement, but not repeat information already given.

gertie (Oct 16, 2002 9:52:03 PM)
size of the paycheck aside, do the higher tier schools help you get into positions in public interest or non-profit sectors?

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:52:14 PM)
When sending in the app & supporting docs, is it preferable to have a cover page or lead page? Or should apps and LORs just be stapled together and sent in?

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:52:42 PM)
Sorry, I meant personal statement, not LORs (on my last sentence above)

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:52:51 PM)
Gertie, in general public interest and NFP are somewhat less competitive than the top law firms.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:52:56 PM)
No cover page. It is not necessary and is just one more piece of paper.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:53:18 PM)
But to the extent that there is competition or that a higher ranked law school graduate applies for one of those positions their schools will have a certain cache.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:54:12 PM)
If you had to name 3 qualities that law schools are looking for - beyond high LSATs and GPAs - what would they be?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:54:44 PM)
Diversity, writing skills, personality/what you bring to the party

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:54:58 PM)
When including a resume, can/should it be similar to those for employment?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:55:15 PM)
It should be tailored to your law school application

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:55:35 PM)
But like all resumes it should emphasize achievement, not just describe responsibilities. And to the extent possible, use numbers to quantify your achievements.

gertie (Oct 16, 2002 9:56:01 PM)
Linda, does "to the extent that there is competition" mean that there might not be competition for those jobs?

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:56:10 PM)
You also want to emphasize any legal experience - volunteer or paid - that you have had. And again, highlight community service.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:56:24 PM)
No it means there might not be competition for the particular position you want from a higher ranked school.

gertie (Oct 16, 2002 9:56:45 PM)
among other students?

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:57:19 PM)
Yes, from other students at higher ranked schools.

gertie (Oct 16, 2002 9:57:28 PM)
thanks

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:57:52 PM)
Last question...

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:58:42 PM)
Thank you all again for participating this evening. Special thanks to Catherine Cook for her valuable insights.

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:58:49 PM)
I'm debating on a couple different routes for my statement. 1.How the death of my father (freak accident) has sculpted me as a person...2. My responsibilities through work and school have made me a unique individual. I'm not going for pity w/#1, but does that happen a lot?

gertie (Oct 16, 2002 9:58:54 PM)
thank you both

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 9:59:20 PM)
You're welcome. Catherine, you can answer umnd's question before we close.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 9:59:38 PM)
It can happen, but you can certainly frame it so that you do not come across as looking for pity. After all, it is these experiences that shape us.

umnd (Oct 16, 2002 9:59:58 PM)
Thx for all your advice tonight.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 10:00:01 PM)
If you would like information about our personal statement editing services, please visit http://www.accepted.com/services/lawservices.aspx .

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 10:00:22 PM)
A sad reality is that we often learn the most profound lessons from tragedy.

Catherine Cook (Oct 16, 2002 10:00:33 PM)
Thank you to everyone for your good questions, and best of luck with your applications.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 10:00:36 PM)
I want to mention that Accepted.com has been busy. If you are interested in our services, please contact us well before your deadlines.

Linda Abraham (Oct 16, 2002 10:00:44 PM)
Have a very good evening! Good luck with your applications!

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