2002 Law School Admissions Chat with Loretta DeLoggio

Please feel free to let us know if you would like to be informed of future chats by sending e-mail to chat@accepted.com. We would also be interested in knowing if you would prefer a different format or different topics.

Chat Transcript:

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:04:27 PM)
First I want to welcome you all to Accepted.com's law school admissions online chat!

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:04:39 PM)
I also want to welcome Loretta DeLoggio of the DeLoggio Achievement Program, a leading law admissions consultancy. She will be answering your questions this evening.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:05:16 PM)
Thanks to everyone for joining.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:05:59 PM)
Hi! yeah, we've started, JJ

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:06:01 PM)
We encourage dialogue and discussion, but we would like to suggest a structure to make it easier to follow the threads of conversation. So here is the protocol:

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:06:08 PM)
If you would like to ask a question, please type a '?' and then your question. One of us, or another guest, will reply. If one of you wants to comment on the current topic, please jump right in. If you want to start a different topic, please type '?'.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:06:16 PM)
Loretta and I also have a request: We would like to avoid the brief summary of qualifications (or even the long laundry list) followed by the question, "Can I qualify for a particular school." All we will be able to say is "You seem to have a competitive profile" or "Your chances are slim."

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:06:27 PM)
Other than that limitation, this is your chance to ask questions of knowledgeable admissions people. Please fire away!

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:06:37 PM)
?Hi Loretta. I love your website--very illuminating. Are the law school forums useful for getting a sense of schools?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:06:57 PM)
Law forums are useful if you ask the right Q's

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:07:06 PM)
What are some "right" questions?

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:07:19 PM)
JJ, you took the words right out of my mouth!

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:07:27 PM)
if you ask "what are your medians? they're a WASTE

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:07:42 PM)
ask whether anyone with your numbers was accepted

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:08:04 PM)
ask whether the applicant pool changed a lot last year

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:08:23 PM)
ask what makes the difference between a yes and a no in the discretionary range.

sara (Nov 14, 2002 9:08:40 PM)
lsac.org, the aba section gives you the opportunity to type in your numbers and see how many applicants were accepted with those numbers

Gregorio (with computer problems) (Nov 14, 2002 9:08:41 PM)
Hi Loretta, I have been using the LSAC site to get an idea of my chances of admission at schools. Is this a good method and do you think there will be big changes this year?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:09:03 PM)
sara, those #s are 2 yrs old and almost certainly wrong

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:09:08 PM)
yeah, I heard that the numbers are significantly up in many schools

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:09:25 PM)
what are some good subjective questions to ask?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:09:39 PM)
Yeah. I brought some data with me. More than 50 schools had a median LSAT increase of 2 or more points

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:09:45 PM)
Hi Loretta, is a master's degree useful for an older applicant (32)?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:10:18 PM)
Sail = it helps when you're even with another applicant, not when your gpa or LSAT are lower.

cd (Nov 14, 2002 9:10:25 PM)
Linda, I graduated from college 20 years ago.. My GPA wasn't great, is it still relevant???

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:10:49 PM)
CD -- Probably. What have you done since then?

cd (Nov 14, 2002 9:11:00 PM)
I have a great work history

cd (Nov 14, 2002 9:11:08 PM)
nothing academic though

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:11:16 PM)
cd -- doing what? management?

cd (Nov 14, 2002 9:11:24 PM)
YES- management

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:11:27 PM)
Loretta, would a strong post-bac GPA help sailingbat?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:11:35 PM)
cd -- ok, that helps. What LSAT score?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:11:41 PM)
Is college teaching considered "good work history?"

cd (Nov 14, 2002 9:11:54 PM)
I take 12/7. I've been testing at 156-160

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:12:00 PM)
sail -- yes, it's good

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:12:29 PM)
sorry about jumping in earlier. I missed the instruction on protocol. My question is, how serious is it to renege on binding early decision acceptance?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:12:31 PM)
cd -- the LSAT will dictate where you can get in; the low gpa will be forgiven, as long as it's not TOO low -- below 2.75

sara (Nov 14, 2002 9:12:35 PM)
advice to cd- I took my lsats in Oct, and scored much lower than I was practicing

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:12:56 PM)
cd, so did I--scored lower, I mean.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:13:14 PM)
JJ -- reneging on a binding early can be reported to the BAR ASS"n as FRAUD> AM I clear?

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:13:27 PM)
how bad is, then, switching from binding early action to regular? (I have g-town in mind in particular)

lawgrrl (Nov 14, 2002 9:13:43 PM)
Situation: I am a black female. Went to a Top 10 LAC. Majored in econ. Numbers are 3.19/157. I worked one year at a top law firm and two years as an analyst. I cancelled two lsats before the low score. All three poor performances were due to nervousness. Question 1: Should I submit an addendum explaining the poor lsat. Or is it bad to bring up nervousness? Question 2: Do you think I'll have any luck at NU, Penn, Cornell Gtown. Or are they way out of my league?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:13:53 PM)
JJ -- switching before you hear is ok. Why do you want to?

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:14:16 PM)
After applying I'm having second thoughts on being bound

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:14:47 PM)
lawgirl -- yes, explain the LSATs; yes, you have a chance.

Lucky44 (Nov 14, 2002 9:14:51 PM)
I noticed on your Web site you listed Wisconsin as a school that will take less admits this year due to over enrollment... I was placed on hold list last year and ultimately I retook the LSAT and added two points to my score (avg. 161 now). Is there anything else I can do?

sara (Nov 14, 2002 9:15:18 PM)
? how beneficial is rolling admission? I didn't do that well on my lsats should I take them again or apply before Thanksgiving and rely on rolling admissions.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:15:23 PM)
JJ -- yes, call and change; follow up in writing

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:15:43 PM)
Sara -- a high score is more important than an early one.

sara (Nov 14, 2002 9:16:15 PM)
Can I apply now, take the LSATs in Dec. and resubmit just my score?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:16:27 PM)
sara -- yes, but that can waste $$

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:16:28 PM)
Cornell, Penn, NWU, Gtown say they'll take higher LSAT. Do they completely ignore the 1st one?

sara (Nov 14, 2002 9:16:34 PM)
Why?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:16:47 PM)
JJ -- no, not any more -- NW, yes, the others not

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:16:51 PM)
I got 158 in '99 & 166 in Oct '02.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:17:10 PM)
JJ--okay for all but GT with those numbers

sara (Nov 14, 2002 9:17:13 PM)
Would I have to send out totally new applications?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:17:31 PM)
Is it weird that I have already been accepted at Pitt with 3.22/157?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:17:38 PM)
Sara -- depends on the score -- if you're too low for where you applied, yes.

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:17:40 PM)
You mean I have a better chance at NW & Penn than GT?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:17:52 PM)
JJ -- AFAIK, yes.

artvandelay (Nov 14, 2002 9:18:05 PM)
I would like to get into a top ten law school. My GPA is below the 25th % at those schools but my lsat score is at or above the 75%. I took the lsat twice and LSAC admits they made a mistake first time around but still will report my lower score, so I have to include a letter to explain. I also have to include a letter to explain being on probation when I entered undergrad because I was missing a has course. So, should I try to explain my GPA too, or not. (3.22, 162 first time when LSAC admits a mistake, 170 second)

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:18:10 PM)
AFAIK = as far as I know.

sara (Nov 14, 2002 9:18:23 PM)
No. I could get into schools I'm just on the lower end, so I would apply now and if I don't get accepted than submit my new lsat

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:18:27 PM)
(then, maybe I should just keep my ED w/ GT)

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:18:28 PM)
Sailingbat, why is it weird?

lawgrrl (Nov 14, 2002 9:18:42 PM)
How important is getting applications in early? How good a chance would you say if you know?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:18:42 PM)
It just seemed so early, since I'm not a knockout candidate.

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:19:03 PM)
I expected to be held longer...

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:19:15 PM)
lawgrrl, submit as early as possible PROVIDED you don't compromise the quality of the application.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:19:19 PM)
art -- your LSAT average is LOW for the schools. What do you mean by LSAC "made a mistake"?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:20:24 PM)
sail -- I think you're what they want, no surprise.

artvandelay (Nov 14, 2002 9:20:30 PM)
Test administers made a mistake, said we could not return to a question in the same section that we were working in. I didn't get my complaint in with in the 9 day complaint period so I am stuck with the lower score. LSAC includes a letter in my file indicating that there was an error which affected my score.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:20:42 PM)
Sail -- what's your ethnicity? Did you have a diversity statement?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:21:09 PM)
art -- schools pay no attention to those letters. A lot of schools will average.

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:21:13 PM)
No, I'm a middle-aged white guy, college teacher, MA in English.

lawgrrl (Nov 14, 2002 9:21:25 PM)
How great a chance would you say I have at those schools: Gtown, Penn, NU Cornell?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:21:33 PM)
sail -- the maturity, MA, probably helped a lot.

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:22:11 PM)
What would you say is the average number of applications being sent this year by applicants?

artvandelay (Nov 14, 2002 9:22:13 PM)
loretta, so I'm looking at the wrong schools. Should I include a third letter explaining problems leading to the gpa?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:22:20 PM)
lawgirl -- can't tell me with out more information. Activities, recs, essays, are all important.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:22:44 PM)
art -- 3 strikes, etc. Apply lower rather than explain more.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:23:12 PM)
JJ -- averages are misleading -- anat'l = 5-6; east coast = 15+

artvandelay (Nov 14, 2002 9:23:17 PM)
ok, thank you very much

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:23:30 PM)
anat'l ?

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:23:52 PM)
That's supposed to be nationally .

Gregorio (with computer problems) (Nov 14, 2002 9:24:01 PM)
haha thanks.... I was at your web page loretta, and I saw that you had a new page coming out, will that be able to help me figure out my chances of admission as a "non mainstream" applicant, eg. work, masters, and minority status

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:24:19 PM)
Should I retake LSAT in Dec with a 157/3.22, hoping for Pepperdine, Loyola LA, USanDiego? Or does maturity count enough to balance the low LSAT?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:24:36 PM)
I think I will. The programmer promises much, delivers -- well, we'll see.

fligirl (Nov 14, 2002 9:24:51 PM)
? I have a 152/ 3.75

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:24:56 PM)
sail -- I don't know all those #'s in my head, but isn't 157 median at San Diego?

lawgrrl (Nov 14, 2002 9:25:28 PM)
Would you consider them targets or reaches? assuming everything is top notch. Recs are detailed and substantial.

fligirl (Nov 14, 2002 9:25:30 PM)
should I retake lsats?- I'm looking into Fordham, Brooklyn law, St Johns, or is that lsat good enough?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:25:36 PM)
It's about 159 at USD.

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:25:57 PM)
I have 3.87/158/166; w/ 3.9 grad school gpa. would you say: USC, Texas are safety? Or still a bit of a reach?

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:26:11 PM)
undergrad: small, Michigan, private college

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:26:36 PM)
I think 159 is USD's median. Same at Loyola, Pepperdine 157.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:26:41 PM)
lawgirl -- I can't say. The AFAM applicant pool is STRONG this year. I have a nice client sitting in the next room with a 3.9 in engineering, another with a 4.0, etc.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:26:47 PM)
Loretta, you mentioned the factors that distinguish applicants within a school's key range. What are they?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:27:19 PM)
Linda -- essay, quality of school, recs, work/grad, in more or less that order.

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:27:45 PM)
All three schools average scores. Ugh. The best I could manage, after averaging, is 159-160.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:28:09 PM)
JJ -- still too high. Texas as a non-resident?!!

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:28:19 PM)
I'm a CA resident.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:28:27 PM)
Then not Texas!

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:28:44 PM)
USC still risky?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:28:53 PM)
JJ -- even USC is a stretch. Look at Minnesota.

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:29:32 PM)
I wrote a letter explaining why the earlier score isn't representative. A good, legit reason. Still?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:29:33 PM)
Gregoir, I haven't seen anyone but me with so many computer problems! What's up::?

artvandelay (Nov 14, 2002 9:29:43 PM)
I don't know if this is the right place for this question but do you have any knowledge of law schools with especially good corporate law programs? every school claims they have one but I can't differentiate between them.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:29:47 PM)
JJ -- NO ONE CARES.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:30:08 PM)
art -- Law IS corporate law. all law schools have it.

fligirl (Nov 14, 2002 9:30:24 PM)
152/ 3.75 I'm looking into Fordham, Brooklyn law, St. Johns

fligirl (Nov 14, 2002 9:30:29 PM)
Should I retake my lsats?

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:30:30 PM)
loretta: Can you suggest another (other than Minn) in top 20?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:30:41 PM)
JJ -- no one cares about explanations these days.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:30:43 PM)
JJ, spoken like a Californian.

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 9:30:49 PM)
I have a fairly significant LSAT split-- 165/175. What's the best way to maximize the higher score? I'm currently applying early to Columbia with a 3.55 from Yale.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:30:58 PM)
JJ -- no.

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:31:32 PM)
ugghhh. Minnesota. I'm getting goose bumps already.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:31:35 PM)
jws25 -- were you sick? What's the reason?

Gregorio (with computer problems) (Nov 14, 2002 9:31:59 PM)
So if the LSAC website is telling me my chances at a school are 15-33% should I cut that in half, by a third? How do I know?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:32:09 PM)
flgirl -- Fordham, no, Brooklyn, no, St. Johns I dopn'

javan (Nov 14, 2002 9:32:31 PM)
Hi loretta. What are competitive numberss for MN and WI this year? Assume non-URM , male, WI resident

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:32:32 PM)
Sorry -- I seem to hit the return when I mean the '

fligirl (Nov 14, 2002 9:32:35 PM)
huh?

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 9:32:36 PM)
I really don't know why. Every other practice score was in the 170's. I had to take it not in my home town and the motel I stayed at really stunk......:)

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:32:48 PM)
URM?

fligirl (Nov 14, 2002 9:32:53 PM)
I should not go for it?- I was scoring much higher on my practices.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:33:01 PM)
under-represented minority.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:33:16 PM)
javan -- MN -- 163/3.5+; MN, 159, 3.4+

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:33:31 PM)
Janvan--read Mn first, Wis. second

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:34:05 PM)
JWS -- try explaining, but apply lower as well.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:34:44 PM)
flgirl -- Frodham -- you need higher; Brooklyn, you probably need higher; St. John's I don't know

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:34:54 PM)
Last question on this topic: What would you say my chances are at Fordham?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:35:12 PM)
JJ -- good at Fordham, BC

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 9:35:24 PM)
I've heard rumors about Columbia "favoring" the higher score with an 8+ split. Any truth to that?

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:35:40 PM)
Extra-curricular activities have been important for a long time. Recently, post-college work experience seems to have become more common. What is the role of non-academic activities in the admission process to law school?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:36:09 PM)
JWS -- Dean Milligan confirmed last year on an 11 pt split; I didn't ask about 8.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:36:59 PM)
Linda -- Work is more common, not necessarily more favored -- more dot.commers, more I-bankers, in the applicant pool

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:37:08 PM)
If I get put on "hold" after early action consideration, how are my chances? They say the standards are the same between early & regular

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:37:21 PM)
JJ -- where?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:37:37 PM)
Loretta, any inside info on Pepperdine, UCSD or Loyola LA? Favorites? Cautions?

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:37:38 PM)
Cornell, Penn, Gtown, Texas

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:38:01 PM)
If i'm on hold, should I just start applying to safer schools?

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 9:38:08 PM)
There's a lot of paranoia going around about how bad admissions will be with increased applicants. Is it as bad as I've imagined?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:38:16 PM)
Sail -- I like San D the best of the 3, but it's purely personal -- facilities plus religious

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:39:06 PM)
Thanks!

cd (Nov 14, 2002 9:39:15 PM)
What are the best second tier schools?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:39:30 PM)
jws -- I hate to say it is, but I think so. I wrote a piece for my own web page today (not posted yet) that says, "I've been avoiding telling you, but..."

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:39:59 PM)
CD -- best for what? Facilities, employment, academic?

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:40:07 PM)
Loretta, other than ranking and where they think they can get in, what should applicants be looking at in choosing which schools to apply to?

cd (Nov 14, 2002 9:40:15 PM)
Academics

cd (Nov 14, 2002 9:40:44 PM)
Or maybe prestige

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:41:03 PM)
Cd -- Look at the "Peer Ranking' column of USNWR -- Off the top of my head, CaseWestern, Pitt and American

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:41:25 PM)
My earlier un-answered question was: if I'm put on hold after early action at Cornell, Penn, Gtown and Texas, should I realistically start applying to schools such as Minn, BC and Fordham? :)

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:41:32 PM)
Linda -- I think supportive administrators and facilities are important.

jimmy (Nov 14, 2002 9:41:46 PM)
Should I apply for early decision at my reach schools?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:41:56 PM)
Jimmy -- isn't it too late?

jimmy (Nov 14, 2002 9:42:12 PM)
There are a few that are Dec. 2

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:42:34 PM)
Jimmy -- it depends on the school -- at most, no. At a few --n Hastings, eg -- it can help.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:42:50 PM)
JJ -- too late then -- do it now.

jimmy (Nov 14, 2002 9:42:51 PM)
Well, I was thinking about U Chicago specifically.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:43:45 PM)
Jimmy -- no one knows what UC is doing -- too many changes of admissions staff in too short a time.

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:44:05 PM)
Loretta, that was classic. No one DOES care. Thank you.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:44:14 PM)
JJ - that comment was not about your leaving -- apologies!

Lucky44 (Nov 14, 2002 9:44:26 PM)
Does being placed on hold in a prior year help your chances if you re-apply, or it just a whole new ballgame?

jimmy (Nov 14, 2002 9:44:26 PM)
t=thanks loretta

JJ (Nov 14, 2002 9:44:36 PM)
No one cares about...?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:44:54 PM)
Lucky -- new ballgame except at a few schools.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:44:59 PM)
JJ, Loretta, wasn't referring to you with her no one cares. She'll get back to you in a moment.

Lucky44 (Nov 14, 2002 9:45:41 PM)
Would IU-B or Wisc. be in those few schools? ;> Sorry for pestering...

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:46:00 PM)
Law application soared last year. Any suggestions for dealing with the intensified competition for law school?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:46:26 PM)
lucky -- IU B ,maybe -- they put on hold because they filled up. Wisconsin, more likely not.

Lucky44 (Nov 14, 2002 9:46:37 PM)
Thank you!

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:47:02 PM)
Lucky -- continued -- Wisconsin overfilled and will be more conservative this year

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:47:21 PM)
sky-- no questions?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:48:00 PM)
Linda -- make everything as perfect as you can. Hire Linda -- hire me -- or otherwise get REALLY good advice.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:48:12 PM)
:-)

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:48:17 PM)
If you had to name 3 qualities that law schools are looking for - beyond high LSATs and GPAs - what would they be?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:48:47 PM)
Linda -- maturity, insight, accomplishment.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:48:57 PM)
How are re-applicants viewed when applying to law school?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:49:06 PM)
Linda -- a 4th is public interest -- it's so rare these days

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:49:18 PM)
How about initiative.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:49:30 PM)
I guess that would make five.

josh (Nov 14, 2002 9:49:55 PM)
Any idea how University of Victoria (in British Columbia) computes work/extracurricular activity into their admissions index? They claim that it counts for a few points on their website.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:50:11 PM)
Linda -- re-apps who have something to add are given careful consideration, especially if they were waitlisted. Re-apps who are flat-out rejected and re-apply with the same file are wasting time and money.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:50:35 PM)
Linda -- initiative is not a big deal -- it's less "academic"

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:50:57 PM)
What about applicants over 30?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:51:12 PM)
josh -- I know almost nothing about the Canadian schools except that they're a lot easier to get into --- supply and demand.

josh (Nov 14, 2002 9:51:42 PM)
hehe. Oh yeah, except Canadian schools also have much fewer places to offer.

josh (Nov 14, 2002 9:51:52 PM)
How does one demonstrate maturity?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:51:59 PM)
Linda -- in being a ski instructor, no. If being a manager or grad student, yes,.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:51:17 PM)
Josh, accepts and handles responsibility well.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:51:40 PM)
Thinks through decisions with a focus on the consequences of one's actions, weighing risks and rewards,

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:51:47 PM)
josh -- Rising work positions, not repeating mistakes, reasonable responses to questions

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:51:52 PM)
Loretta, any news on McGeorge? Is it cutthroat?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:52:03 PM)
Is it worth the 25K, I mean?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:52:30 PM)
Sail - McG is a laid-back place from what I saw -- more older students, who are more cooperative

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:52:45 PM)
Thanks!

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:52:55 PM)
sail -- the CA job market makes that a tough question to answer.

javan (Nov 14, 2002 9:52:56 PM)
I believe I have borderline numbers for MN. I am also applying to their dual degree JD/MS pharmacology, a program that they seem to hold in high regard. Will this increase my chances?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:53:34 PM)
Javan -- I don't know. But you can call and ask. Collins is very straight forward and helpful.

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:53:50 PM)
What do you mean about the CA job market?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:54:15 PM)
sail -- SF market is always overcrowded.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:54:35 PM)
Is the rest of CA also crowded?

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 9:54:39 PM)
What is the balance for the top tier schools between finding "qualified" applicants, and finding those with numbers that make them look good?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:54:40 PM)
I'm leaning toward SoCal. Any reputation down here?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:54:41 PM)
Sail -- McG places in Sacramento, not SF.

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:54:51 PM)
Cool. Gracias.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:55:17 PM)
Sail -- McG is doing better there, I think.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:55:57 PM)
JWS -- boy, is that loaded question!! How do you define "qualified beyond #'s that make you look good?

javan (Nov 14, 2002 9:56:24 PM)
Any idea how chicago-kent places in the Midwest (i.e. Milwaukee, Minneapolis)?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 9:56:46 PM)
Loretta, I have a mentor suggesting Cal Western, but the placement numbers are SO poor. Any idea why?

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 9:57:05 PM)
Well, I guess the first thing that comes off the top of my head are things like gradual GPA improvement, or split LSATs (like mine). I mean, LSAT scores at the top are determined by one question a point!

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:57:24 PM)
Javan -- Chicago-kent does well all over, with in its tier -- i.e., it doesn't compete with Columbia, but with all second tier schools

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:58:03 PM)
Sailing, Loretta doesn't know any reason for your mentor to suggest Cal Western.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:58:21 PM)
jws -- the questions is, which LSAT score is the "Quality?"

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:58:32 PM)
Focusing on the process after the LSAT, can you suggest strategies for success?

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 9:58:49 PM)
I'm not quite sure what you mean....

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:59:08 PM)
Linda -- ESSAYS, as you and I both know so well. Linda, talk about the difference between the unfocused ideas that come in to you and the edited versions.

javan (Nov 14, 2002 9:59:19 PM)
Meaning how does Kent place in the Midwest job market? I don't know that I want to work in Chicago, but I think I'd like to stay in the Midwest.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 9:59:24 PM)
Thanks.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 9:59:46 PM)
JWS -- you assume that the higher score shows the "quality." Maybe the lower one does; how can a law school tell?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:00:09 PM)
javna -- it does just fine.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:00:12 PM)
Thanks for the opening. Essays are how you can distinguish yourself from your competition.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:00:27 PM)
They won't make up for bad numbers, but a good essay can make you come alive.

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 10:00:33 PM)
Oh! I see. My question was actually different. I meant for schools themselves. They obviously care about numbers--they influence their ranking. How do they balance a concern for ranking with a more holistic search for qualified candidates.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:00:38 PM)
a bad one... let's not go there.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:01:30 PM)
jws -- that's the leeway below 25%, the numbers they don't report. They try to have 76% "numbers" admits, 24% diversity.

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 10:02:21 PM)
I see. 75/25. I guess that's a balance....of sorts.

josh (Nov 14, 2002 10:02:44 PM)
I read somewhere that public interest organizations generally are even worse than the private sector when it comes to recruitment from "name" schools. Any opinions?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:02:50 PM)
jws--It's the one someone forced. they used to report 50th percentile.

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:03:00 PM)
Is there any way to find out the numbers at, say, the 80th/20th percentiles, or even the 90th/10th percentiles?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:04:12 PM)
josh, my info is outdated, but it was the opposite -- they steered clear of top schools, thinking the grads couldn't hack the loan burden.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:04:33 PM)
gwfh -- no. Why would you want to?

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:04:57 PM)
high lsat, low gpa...

josh (Nov 14, 2002 10:05:06 PM)
loretta, that would make sense. I hope you're right!

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 10:05:18 PM)
Loretta, how conservative behaviorally and socially is the law school environment?

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:05:41 PM)
gwfh's questions, leads to my next one: Can high grades compensate for a low LSAT or vice versa?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:05:45 PM)
gwfh -- you don't care about 90/10; look in the official guide at the grids. Some take a certain LSAT no matter what the grade. See IU bloomington, e.g.

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:06:29 PM)
Thanks loretta. I'm actually targeting schools in the top 15.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:06:30 PM)
Linda -- high LSATs, yes; high grades, rarely, unless English is not 1st language, maybe, or some reading disability.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:06:45 PM)
qwfh -- with what LSAT score?

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:07:00 PM)
172. 2.9 (ivy)

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:07:48 PM)
NW and GT might buy. Major more important than Ivy, recs will be crucial.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:08:09 PM)
gwfh, were there extenuating circumstances that contributed to the GPA?

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:08:16 PM)
Or just immaturity?

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:08:32 PM)
Was there an upward trend to the grades? Loretta, would such a trend matter?

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:08:51 PM)
Yes, immaturity. 

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:09:11 PM)
Did you grades go up?

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:09:11 PM)
And no, there was no upward trend, but I've been out of school for some time.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:09:29 PM)
Linda -- the trend would help, but unless the 1st yr was abysmal, the 2.9 bespeaks not anything great ever.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:09:52 PM)
gwfh -- GT and NW, as I said.

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:10:09 PM)
Thanks for the advice loretta. Those are my top 2 choices.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:10:10 PM)
gwfh -- maybe Cornell, they like Ivy

josh (Nov 14, 2002 10:10:10 PM)
Unless you failed an entire semester!

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 10:10:19 PM)
Speaking of upward trends, what about 3.1 to 3.6 in the final year of college? Then a 3.9 in grad school thereafter?

josh (Nov 14, 2002 10:10:20 PM)
that was in reference to the 2.9

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 10:10:41 PM)
Not overall, just semester-wise. I wish.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:11:06 PM)
Obviously, we can all concoct grade trends that would start with 2.0, end with 4.0 and average a 2.9, but I don't think it applies.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:11:07 PM)
sail -- that's too small a difference, if it's in increments. If it's not, where the senior courses tough or easy?

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 10:11:29 PM)
Tough. All senior-level stuff.

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 10:11:41 PM)
Do courses matter? A's in hard courses, I mean?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:12:07 PM)
sail -- some will care; hard to predict who, though. Apply to a few extra reaches in your LSAT range but with higher gpa's.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:12:31 PM)
sail -- term papers, with recs from those profs, will. Otherwise -- ??

josh (Nov 14, 2002 10:13:00 PM)
How do admissions committees distinguish "hard" courses from "easy" ones?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:13:30 PM)
josh -- by course #, title, and info from your recommenders

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:13:58 PM)
Which schools in the top 15 rely on the waitlist as an admissions tool?

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:14:00 PM)
josh -- I once had a kid who took "history of the comics book" -- no lie!

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:14:40 PM)
gwfh -- GT most of all; NW a bit; no one else unless they miscalled the applicant pool

josh (Nov 14, 2002 10:15:15 PM)
aahaha! I should have looked more closely at my course calendar as an undergraduate!

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:15:24 PM)
Guess so. :-)

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 10:15:34 PM)
I would like to defend "the history of the comic book." Cultural studies can be as academically rigorous as a "traditional course." Sometimes even more so to make up for the fact that everyone thinks the content is so frivolous.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:15:52 PM)
Loretta says that any course with words like "Aristotle" looks hard.

sailingbat (Nov 14, 2002 10:16:03 PM)
What is a realistic month for decision letters?

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:16:20 PM)
Jws, Loretta says she has seen that with women's studies and ethnic course, but it's hard for her to take Stan Lee seriously.

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 10:16:38 PM)
True, true.

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:16:54 PM)
sail --any time from now 'till May. The longer the reach, the later the letter.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:01 PM)
Thank you again all for participating this evening. Special thanks to Loretta for her invaluable insights.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:09 PM)
I want to mention that Accepted.com and the DeLoggio Achievement Program have been busy. If you are interested in our services, please contact us well before your deadlines.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:17 PM)
Have a very good evening! Good luck with your applications!

gwfh (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:24 PM)
Thanks for your help!

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:31 PM)
You're welcome.

josh (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:38 PM)
Thanks!

loretta (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:39 PM)
Linda, thanks for taking on the Herculean task of cleaning up my typos. I'll see you again in a year or two! 

jws25 (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:43 PM)
Thanks

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:48 PM)
I look forward to it.

Linda Abraham (Nov 14, 2002 10:17:57 PM)
You're welcome. Good night all.

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