2007 MBA Waitlist Admissions Chat with Linda Abraham
2007 MBA Waitlist Admissions Chat with Linda Abraham
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Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 11:59:52 AM)
First I want to welcome you all to Accepted.com’s waitlist chat.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:00:03 PM)
Thanks to you all for joining.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:00:45 PM)
Let’s get started. I titled this chat “5 Keys to Moving from the Wait List to the Accepted List.” Wait-list status is tough and you need the right set of keys to open the door to the program you want to attend. The truth is that even with these keys, you are not guaranteed the lock will work. But you do need the keys.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:00:51 PM)
First, a word of intro: Realize that receipt of a wait-list letter means you qualify for admission. You pass. You are probably on the wait-list (and not admitted) because they have already admitted applicants with your profile and want diversity in the class. Or they find your qualifications impressive, but find someone else’s even more so.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:00:58 PM)
Before we get to the keys, I want to provide Rule #1 for waitlisted applicants: Follow the schools’ instructions.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:01:04 PM)
“Ah,” you say, “But I want to…..” See Rule #1
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:01:29 PM)
Now the keys:
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:01:42 PM)
Key #1: Evaluate your candidacy. First, read the letter for any hints of deficiency in your profile. If a weakness is mentioned, inform the school of steps you have taken to ameliorate it. If the school encourages contact, do so as I will outline in a moment. If the letter doesn’t provide any clues or suggestions, then you must do your own evaluation. Accepted.com can also provide such an evaluation.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:02:01 PM)
Key #2: If the school encourages contact, provide it, but always remember that quality trumps quantity. Demonstrate your interest and give them more reasons to admit you. Inform the school of new achievements, initiatives, promotions, and developments in your life. This key implies developing a proactive campaign or schedule of contact roughly every 2-3 weeks. The exact particulars will vary depending on your school, specialty, and exactly when you are put on the wait list, but it can include letters, additional visit(s) to the school, an offer to interview, letters of support from others, and occasional phone calls.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:02:07 PM)
Letters should be 1-2 pages. For tips on the letters’ content, please see Accepted Admissions Almanac.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:02:21 PM)
Key #3: Reinforce the idea of a fit between you and the school. Show how a visit confirmed and deepened your interest in the program.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:02:27 PM)
Key #4: Enlist your fan club. Seek letters of support from supervisors on and off the job. Current students and recent alumni who know you can also write letters of support and emphasize your fit with the program. Letters from big names who don’t know you are not effective.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:02:36 PM)
Key #5: Ask if there is anything you can do to improve your candidacy. (There usually isn’t, but if there is you want to know about it) If there is something, do it.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:02:49 PM)
BW had an excellent article on waitlists, which had some good points.
OzzieW (Jan 11, 2007 12:04:04 PM)
What category does Kellogg fall in?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:04:27 PM)
Unless you have instructions to the contrary, Kellogg is a 'Show me You Love me School.' That means you want to reiterate interest and keep them in formed. Again, quality counts, but interest is important.
LookOutForFrood (Jan 11, 2007 12:05:13 PM)
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:05:32 PM)
Darden encourages contact. Show them you are a better candidate today than you were when you applied in October. Also, show them you want to attend Darden.
ice t (Jan 11, 2007 12:06:03 PM)
If you are waitlisted at a school where they encourage letters, such as Kellogg, how many would it be appropriate to send and what time frame would be best?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:06:58 PM)
That really depends on when you are waitlisted. Considering that it is now January, I would say you want to have contact every 3 weeks or so. If a deadline is approaching or you know they are going to winnow down the waitlist, then contact them before that decision or winnowing date. As you enter spring or even summer, make your contacts a little more frequent, every two weeks or even every week, depending on the signals you get from the school.
Deba (Jan 11, 2007 12:08:01 PM)
I am waitlisted at Chicago GSB. The waitlist FAQ shows that 'We encourage all material to be sent in hard copy. E-mail delivery is accepted but hard copy delivered via standard mail is the preferred format. '. Does that signal that 'no love mail' please? Send only the stuff that is of high quality?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:09:04 PM)
All the schools want stuff that is of high quality. Chicago may be trying to filter out some of the bad by discouraging email or it may have some administrative reason that I am not aware of . To the extent possible, follow their instructions. They may also not want the hastily written correspondence that email frequently is and hard copy sometimes is not.
Psylo (Jan 11, 2007 12:09:35 PM)
What about CMU?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:09:59 PM)
CMU is a show me school. We had a waitlist chat with them last year. You should look at it.
Guest (Jan 11, 2007 12:10:10 PM)
Is Darden the same way?
OzzieW (Jan 11, 2007 12:10:18 PM)
But they tell you not to contact them. I cannot see them during school visit.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:10:29 PM)
Did they say not to contact them at all or not to see them during a visit? Again, the first rule is to follow the instructions. In the past, they have been a program that encourages contact. Many schools don't want you to "drop in" on them. That is just asking you to respect the time of busy people.
OzzieW (Jan 11, 2007 12:11:17 PM)
They asked us not to see them during a visit.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:11:28 PM)
That does not equal "don't send us any paper."
ice t (Jan 11, 2007 12:11:36 PM)
Also, for writing letters how many issues are appropriate to address in each? What length is ideal?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:11:44 PM)
The letters should not be more than 1-2 pages. You may also decide that strategically you don't address all issues in the first letter.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:12:34 PM)
In terms of what can be addressed: achievements and initiatives in your personal or professional life or in the community service sphere. Anything that deepens your interest in a particular program or hones your goals.
kookie (Jan 11, 2007 12:13:22 PM)
What about Duke Fuqua?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:13:44 PM)
In the past they have also been a school that accepted waitlist material. Have they given you any indication?
Psylo (Jan 11, 2007 12:13:53 PM)
What if there hasn't been any significant developments at my end and the school encourages contact?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:14:26 PM)
They may assume you are not as interested in their school as the waitlisted candidate who has been in contact. They may also believe you haven't been growing as much as the person who is keeping in touch.
Guest (Jan 11, 2007 12:14:31 PM)
Great, thank you!
DLKELK (Jan 11, 2007 12:14:42 PM)
In the Kellogg follow up letter, should you reaffirm things you already mentioned in your application or touch on something different?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:14:53 PM)
Good question. The follow up letters should add to your application. They should not reiterate, repeat, or summarize. So that means they should focus on events and developments that took place since you applied.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:16:28 PM)
However, if you were working on a project that you mention in your application and have since completed it and earned an award, clearly you will gain to mention the project and focus on the successful conclusion and the achievement that earned the award.
ice t (Jan 11, 2007 12:16:46 PM)
To follow up, when you say every three weeks, does that mean a mix of calls and letters?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:16:54 PM)
Yes. And not all the letters have to come from you. Furthermore, I would lean more towards letters than calls. An occasional call is OK, but it is more intrusive and interruptive.
TNT (Jan 11, 2007 12:17:46 PM)
Linda, I was waitlisted at Chicago last summer. Took feedback, addressed concerns and reapplied in first round. Unfortunately waitlisted again. I have visited the school 3 times, met students, wrote about experiences. Now without feedback from them I am lost - Any suggestions?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:18:04 PM)
It's a tough year. I would really need to review your application to give you more suggestions. You may at this point be a victim of the numbers in a very competitive year. Remember, feedback does not guarantee admission. Sorry I can't be of more help in this medium.
OzzieW (Jan 11, 2007 12:19:03 PM)
Is career change considered a weakness? How can I address this?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:19:11 PM)
No. It is not a weakness. 50% of MBA students are career changers. You do need to tie your past experience to the development of your future goals. But frankly, if you hadn't done that I doubt if you would be on the waitlist. You would have been rejected.
Deba (Jan 11, 2007 12:20:05 PM)
Chicago GSB waitlist FAQ states 'Although not required, the Admissions Committee will be happy to consider any additional information that you would like to submit. Any material you send should add insight into your qualifications for the GSB beyond what was presented in your original application. When sending additional material, please include a cover letter clearly stating that we are holding your application on our Wait List.'. Any interpretations?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:20:35 PM)
I think that's pretty clear. Do you have any specific questions?
callmesidd (Jan 11, 2007 12:20:52 PM)
Do you think Kellogg and Chicago endorse the supporting documents?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:21:02 PM)
I assume you mean waitlist letters. The answer is yes.
ice t (Jan 11, 2007 12:21:10 PM)
So between now and let's say June how many letters would be appropriate?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:21:54 PM)
Again, quality over quantity, and I go into this more in The 9 Mistakes You Don't Want to Make. But assuming you have what to say, 7-9 points of contact between now and June. If you don't have anything to say, then contact them less.
DLKELK (Jan 11, 2007 12:22:37 PM)
Kellogg only requests one follow up letter, no additional recommendations. After the letter is submitted, would you recommend following up with calls periodically?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:22:51 PM)
Do they limit you to one letter specifically?
TNT (Jan 11, 2007 12:23:01 PM)
I think I need another set of eyes, I will contact you offline.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:23:16 PM)
Ok. You can contact me by filling out our registration form.
Deba (Jan 11, 2007 12:24:32 PM)
Can a strong application but a below-average interview be a strong reason for a waitlist?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:24:54 PM)
Sure Debra, but realize that is very difficult for interviewees to gauge how they did in an interview. They are frequently wrong.
Psylo (Jan 11, 2007 12:25:09 PM)
If one has been waitlisted in Round 1, are there any chances of hearing from the school once Round 2 decisions have been mailed or does one have to wait till Round 3 is over?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:25:26 PM)
That depends on the school, but many schools review the waitlist with Round 2 applicants.
TNT (Jan 11, 2007 12:25:37 PM)
There has been much talk about applications rising this year. How much has it increased if one were to make an educated guess? Does that mean that the waitlist pool also increased?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:26:30 PM)
It's hard to say. I've heard one school that was way up Round 1 and then had a more reasonable increase Round 2. I think it was Cornell, but I'm not sure. If someone wants to check the transcript from that chat, it might be there.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:26:59 PM)
I suspect that applications will be up about 10-15% over last year. I don't think the wait list sizes will increase overall. I think it's just going to be harder to get accepted.
Deba (Jan 11, 2007 12:27:27 PM)
If yes, what can be done to nullify the below average interview performance?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:28:17 PM)
You can request a second interview, but you probably won't get one. If you feel the interviewer was unprofessional, you could complain, but that could backfire and would have to be egregious. You could ask your fan club to comment on strengths that could counter-balance a false impression made during your interview. You could also try to counter that impression in your waitlist letters without referring to the interview, which may not be a problem at all.
International (Jan 11, 2007 12:29:42 PM)
Wharton adcom discourages contact. Should I send them follow-up mails anyway?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:29:47 PM)
ice t (Jan 11, 2007 12:30:00 PM)
From Kellogg: If you would like to provide an update on your candidacy, please submit your letter in writing via postal mail or fax at 847-491-4960. We discourage the submission of additional letters of recommendation or references from third parties, as we prefer to hear directly from our candidates.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:30:27 PM)
To me that means that if YOU have something to say you should say it; it doesn't limit you to one letter.
Guest (Jan 11, 2007 12:30:38 PM)
Linda, I think some applicants are lost when the admissions offices don't say what's the max number of letters we should send. Could you help us?
ice t (Jan 11, 2007 12:30:47 PM)
It would seem more than one letter is okay the way I read it.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:30:51 PM)
DLKELK (Jan 11, 2007 12:31:01 PM)
The FAQ says, "If you would like to provide an update on your candidacy, please submit your letter in writing..." I interpret that as one letter. No?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:31:03 PM)
dw999 (Jan 11, 2007 12:31:41 PM)
Hello - my question is regarding how Cornell treats their waitlist specifically. In the past, how large is their list and what percentage of applicants are accepted? With applications up this year, do you have any indication as to how many you think will be taken?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:32:30 PM)
I don't have those stats unfortunately, but I wouldn't pay too much attention to them if I did. In talking to adcom members they all say waitlist stats can vary enormously from year to year.
Grumpy99 (Jan 11, 2007 12:33:02 PM)
I have been accepted at a Top 20 school with a scholarship but waitlisted from a slightly higher ranked school which is my first choice. How long should I tough out the waitlist before getting off the pot so to speak?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:33:50 PM)
That's a tough one that I also address in The Nine Mistakes You Don't Want to Make at greater length. Would you go to the waitlisted school without a scholarship?
STLMN (Jan 11, 2007 12:34:00 PM)
Do you think Yale is wait listing more people this year to avoid the problem they had last year with too many students?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:35:05 PM)
I just read on BW that they are accepting somewhat fewer students. They conducted an interview with the new adcom director of Yale on BW. He touches on this question and I don't remember exactly what he said. Look at the interview.
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 12:35:26 PM)
I'm on the waitlist at Kellogg and my waitlist manager said to not send any more letters of recommendation. However, I asked specifically about alumni or current students lobbying/campaigning on my behalf and she said its up to me. Do you think its beneficial?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:35:57 PM)
That would depend on the quality of your relationship with the Kellogg student and alumni. If they know you well and comment articulately about your fit with the school, then have them send in a succinct statement on your fit with Kellogg. If they can't do so, then don't ask.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:37:35 PM)
Also, for all of you to keep in mind, that your interactions with the school as an applicant are indications of your judgment and character. Send in substantive, impressive material to those schools that encourage it, and you will be viewed as a substantive, impressive person. Send in junk, and well...
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:39:44 PM)
You need to determine what is the last date before you will let go of the waitlist at Top Choice. Until about a week before that date, you should work the waitlist at Top Choice, considering the advice above. If you are not accepted before that date then contact Top Choice and tell them of your dilemma. perhaps they will be close to making a decision and will admit you. Perhaps they will tell you that they can't give you a decision. In either situation, you will have done your best to present your case and then it's up to them.
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 12:41:01 PM)
The company I worked for went bankrupt (BK) and I was there for the entire process until about 4 weeks ago, I was forced to take a new job in an industry I didn't want to make ends meet. Should I talk about the BK process and how going to Kellogg would have helped me look at the entire process differently, otherwise, I don't have great updates or promotions to talk about.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:41:33 PM)
That can be a highly educational process. Yes, talk about what you learned from the BK experience. Try to find the silver lining in your current job.
ice t (Jan 11, 2007 12:41:44 PM)
Would it be best that each interaction brings up something new or can some letters be simple reiterations of you interest?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:41:56 PM)
Each letter should add something new. It can be a new experience or interaction that strengthened your interest. So you are reiterating that experience as well as presenting info. It should never be a mere rehash.
Grumpy99 (Jan 11, 2007 12:42:55 PM)
Gotcha. Thank you Linda.
STLMN (Jan 11, 2007 12:44:01 PM)
Any idea what percentage of applicants were waitlisted in Round 1 at Yale? Is there any advantage to being on the wait list for Round 1 vs. Round 2?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:45:01 PM)
I don't have any stats of Yale's waitlist. The only advantage I can think of to a Round 1 waitlisted applicants is that you are considered longer and earlier, but I don't know of any statistical advantage.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:45:43 PM)
Keep in mind that at the end of the day you are 100% in or 100% out. Some of the stressing about stats is a little misplaced. Focus on improving your profile and presenting it to the best of your ability. Not the stats.
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 12:45:53 PM)
Even though my current job does not match my career goals or aspirations, you suggested spinning it to show why it is helpful or do I need a different approach?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:46:50 PM)
Yes. Realize that jobs develop certain patterns of thought, character traits, and strengths. How are these muscles going to help you in your next career? The school wants to know that you analyzed your past experience and that is has value. If it has not vale and no relationship to your future goals, then you are like a college grad in terms of your next employer, but you're going to want more money because of your years of work experience. If you don't value that experience, why should an employer or the school?
OzzieW (Jan 11, 2007 12:48:19 PM)
I have been working towards something that I want to pursue after graduation. My interest/hobby. Should my letter focus on my achievements in the hobby space, because that is what I want to do after graduation or talk about my achievements at work?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:48:23 PM)
sumitv (Jan 11, 2007 12:48:40 PM)
What about Columbia's "Reconsider Later" list. Do you have any past experiences/stats on that? Is it better or worse than a proper waitlist spot?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:49:07 PM)
It is very similar to other schools' waitlists.
International (Jan 11, 2007 12:49:20 PM)
Do you recommend contacting my interviewer and trying to get feedback from him on how my interview was and letting him know I am waitlisted?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:50:29 PM)
If you had a good rapport with him and he asked you to keep him posted, sure. If not, then no. I also don't think I would ask directly for feedback on the interview. You might ask if he has any suggestions to help you get off the waitlist.
STLMN (Jan 11, 2007 12:50:40 PM)
Yale seems to welcome continued input/information from applicants, but says not to over-do it (every 4-6 weeks). What tips would you offer for someone on Yale's wait list?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:51:27 PM)
Very similar to what I wrote above. Write about accomplishments and initiatives since you applied. Any interactions that deepened your interest in attending Yale. Any ways you can fill in weaknesses in your application.
luchito (Jan 11, 2007 12:51:38 PM)
I've heard that Berkeley waitlists students prior to an interview. Is that right? Are there other schools that also follow this order?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:52:39 PM)
I 'm not sure if Berkeley will waitlist before an interview. I am almost positive it won't admit without at least a telephone interview.
ice t (Jan 11, 2007 12:52:52 PM)
Would an approach of alternating updates of personal achievement with school specific be a good approach?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:53:06 PM)
Sure. If you have enough material. I wouldn't be rigid about it. If it's personal achievement's turn and something spectacular and school specific occurred, switch turns. :-)
STLMN (Jan 11, 2007 12:53:56 PM)
I agree with you on the stats. I try not to over analyze info, but was curious about how big the wait list may be at Yale this year. Seems like a lot of schools are utilizing the wait list more than usual this year, but maybe I have a skewed perspective. At the end of the day, it's up to me to present myself in the most effective manner possible and hope that Yale views me as a good addition to the class of '09.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:54:03 PM)
MiamiM4321 (Jan 11, 2007 12:54:21 PM)
Was waitlisted at Vanderbilt. Received feedback from the adcom and they recommended I take the GMAT again. I've been taking more practice exams and my score is not improving more than 20 points. Any other options I should look into? I decided to enroll in a Business Calculus class as well in hopes that it shows I'm committed to improving my Quant skills.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:54:28 PM)
Check out mbamath.com.
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 12:54:52 PM)
How quickly should I send out my update letter? Is there any advantage to sending it immediately vs. waiting?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:55:04 PM)
If not now, then when? Kidding aside, I would send at least a succinct expression of interest immediately because it shows interest, enthusiasm, and alacrity. Then compose a more detailed and meaty letter and send it out a week or so later.
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 12:56:16 PM)
My GMAT score was low as well, but they didn't mention it. However, my GPA was stellar and my line of work has included quite a bit of quantitative work. Should I address it in a follow up letter?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:56:45 PM)
Do you mind if I ask who low was it? What was your quant percentile?
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 12:57:09 PM)
Perhaps should I send it out closer to Round 2 decision time?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:57:16 PM)
I wouldn't wait that long.
STLMN (Jan 11, 2007 12:57:27 PM)
Any insight into getting waitlisted with an interview vs. wait listed without? I was wait listed without an interview at Yale.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:57:57 PM)
If you were waitlisted without interview, I would offer to interview.
MiamiM4321 (Jan 11, 2007 12:58:27 PM)
Should I just focus on the Business Calculus class and tell the Adcom I don't plan on taking the GMAT again?
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 12:59:20 PM)
Focus on the business calculus class and your outstanding performance there. I would put it in the context of preparing for b-school and I wouldn't mention the GMAT. Why bring up a negative?
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 12:59:34 PM)
My quant was 58th percentile. My GMAT score is 640.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:00:54 PM)
Again, consider enrolling in MBAmath.com and write about it as preparation for b-school. Just to make sure that all your quant skills are top notch before you arrive.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:01:07 PM)
Do you have lots of quant As on your transcript?
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 1:01:26 PM)
Mostly A's some B's
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:02:00 PM)
Did you take the GMAT more than once?
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 1:02:38 PM)
I took it twice and got the same exact score.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:03:47 PM)
They will probably view the score as anomalous considering your grades and work. Still to be on the safe side, I would look into MBAmath.com (Note: I am not an owner in it), or consider taking another online course that will boost quant skills. Just to be on the safe side and show that you are doing what you can to prepare. I can't say that will get you in, but it certainly won't hurt anything and will address a weakness in your profile.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:04:47 PM)
Thank you again all for participating today.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:04:53 PM)
Please keep in mind that Accepted.com has several resources to help your waitlist effort:
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:05:00 PM)
Our ebook: The Nine Mistakes You Don't Want to Make on an MBA Waitlist at is on sale at $14.98 through January 31. It will go up to $19.97 on February 1.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:05:06 PM)
Check out Accepted.com's MBA Waitlist Advising and Editing services. We can provide that evaluation I recommended at the beginning of the chat or review and edit your waitlist letter.
Linda Abraham (Jan 11, 2007 1:05:11 PM)
Have a very good day! Good luck with your applications!
mba4me (Jan 11, 2007 1:05:54 PM)
International (Jan 11, 2007 1:06:14 PM)
Thanks, good luck everyone!
STLMN (Jan 11, 2007 1:06:23 PM)
Deba (Jan 11, 2007 1:07:19 PM)